Initiation - necessary or not?

[admin]

I've decided to start a new thread here and as soon as I've figured out how to move the threads from the end of "Skyclad" I will do so.

[admin]

This is in response to Deabolus' post in the Skyclad thread. The thread was was getting rather off topic so I've started a new "on topic" thread but can't figure out how to move the posts to here.

Deabolus - your post in response to ccstoops seemed to be confusing the various forms of initiation. Yes, if you want to learn about magic, then it helps enormously to be part of a good coven/order/temple. Outside of that it takes a lot of trial, error and dedication to get beyond even the very basic steps, something that most people either don't have, or fool themselves that they are better than they are.

Nowhere in ccstoops post did he imply that he was a magical adept. In fact he referred to paganism, which last time I checked didn't involve magic or initiation. In fact he was referring to spirituality - something that doesn't require initiation, something that is entirely personal.

Wicca is Wicca and does require initiation but as covens are autonomous required standards vary hugely, paganism is paganism and requires following whatever your conscience/will/spirit tells you is the right path for you - the spiritual awakening which some confuse with self-initiation can come from any path, ceremonial magic requires study and hardwork and a good order, which have their own initiatory standards. Self-dedication (which I think gets mixed up with self-initiation) is entirely valid and between the dedicant and their divinity.

is so obvious that you have never found those who would think you adept enough to join the coven! You can "PUSSY" foot around with your: If you dont accept me I`ll make it up traditions but in order to gain "REAL KNOWLEDGE" (you know the stuff that really works as opposed to the made up fluffy bunny, crystal brigades pretendaspells knowledge)
You need to be with and a part of those who`s knowledge has been handed down and kept pure!
Those that have a real connection. Those "really" in the know!
You sound like the many who "SAY" they have done this and that? Those who would have others think they are the "bees knees" A Witchy Guru of the highest order.
This is why you can never find that "Coven" BECAUSE YOU HAVE TOTALY MISSED THE POINT
so old and yet so unwise?
You should take a long look at yourself? stop trying to joke your way into the place you so desire!

From this I can only guess that Deabolus is trying to imply that he is part of some Coven with pure knowledge and is one of those "REALLY" in the know?

Rhiannon

[Jaxom]

Question ?
Who gave the first initiation to the first initiate?

[admin]

That old chestnut!

Well, within Gardnerian Wicca, Gardner initiated the first initiate and within Alexandrian Wicca it was Alex Saunders. For the Golden Dawn and OTO it would be whomever started the initiatory line for the various temples.

Each initiatory line had to start somewhere, and to join an initiatory line it is necessary to be initiated by someone within that line, otherwise you're not being initiated into that line.

Within the Bloods and the Crips and whatever other gangs there are in America, the first initiation took place when a group of lads decided to get together and form a gang with an initiation - if you want to be in their gang you have to go through their initiation.

This does not mean that being in a gang or coven is the right path for everyone, nor that it is a better path for anyone.

bb
Rhiannon

[TheWatcher©]

Deabolus my good friend

Don't be throwing your proverbial dolly out of the pram without sticking the pins in first

For your information I'll keep it quite simple, terms that maybe you'll grasp and get the point of my previous post.

Firstly, understand the analogy of branches being part of the same tree and feeding off the same root system and that is paganism. There are many forms of paganism which have at their root a nature reverencing spirituality where some honour a duality of masuline and feminine and others do not. Kinda gives you an idea of how as the tree grows the branches divert from the trunk as an individual expression of their particular form of practice/worship. The fruit which the branches bear is their unique distillation of that knowledge and the seeds of that fruit are the practitioners.

Like most seeds they need a fertile soil, water and sunlight to grow but if they fall in the shade of the tree they will never flourish.

I like to use analogies as you can see.

Spiritual snobbery occurs when you have a narrow focus and limited breadth of experience, an oven ready chip on your shoulder and a severe lack of humour and humility. I choose to craft my own path by learning what I feel is useful to me and applying what I feel is of use to me. It works for me and I'm exactly where I am at this moment in time without a need or a desire to be part of a Coven (something I used to be in contrary to what your assumed but found that it wasn't suited to my personal expression of my path).

I don't choose to hang onto the coat tails of anyone, choose to grow in the sunshine in a fertile soil rather than in the shade of another and also choose what I wish to persue.

I don't and never have stated that Covens are a bad thang, that I desire to join one and because I'm an inept rather than an adept have never had the opportunity to be in one as this is quite untrue. Assumptions are the mother of all feckups don't you find Deabolus?

I don't 'knock' anyone's practice simply because I KNOW that there are many ways to get to where you want and if yours works for you too then whoopiedoo just don't be so quick to pour scorn on those who don't follow the teachings of your 'master'.

Having taken a long look at myself in the mirror what I see is a piece of cabbage stuck between my teeth whereas you'd maybe see a large slice of humble pie

Rhiannon

Self dedication and self initiation are two separate entities as you point out. I read somewhere that self initiation takes you to the door whereas initiation within a coven/temple etc takes you to the door, gives you the key and opens the door for you. Another nice analogy isn't it but it leaves out the possibility of their being proficient locksmiths with a kirbygrip. It is nice to have a support structure when the unknown comes knocking on that door and that is where most solitary practioners I'd venture to say become hostage to inertia and this is why the wise counsel of others is required and where I think the PA should be an enabling influence.

CCStoop©<br>
^{so old yet so unbareably 'understanding'}

[Jaxom]

admin said:

That old chestnut!

Sorry it was not really a question, as I understand the history of Wicca.
The point I was making was that all paths have to have a start in the line. In view of this I find Spiritual snobbery rather a waste of time.
It has been my fortune to talk with the daughter of a witch family who has been living on the Isle of Man for many generations. They keep their work with in the family and decline to "play" with Wiccans as my friends Mother Aunt and Grandmother all knew GG and found him not to their taste.
In this family oaths are taken as life and death promises, and retribution follows any that break their oaths
My friend has never pursued a life as a witch with her Mother and family so has never been a member of their practice within the craft. These days her mother works as a solitary witch as to quote my friend. " The only witches my Mother can find are all Gardnarian or Alexandrian, and she would not touch them with a barge pole as they are only playing at being Witches."
Her mother states that most of what GG had written was made up in the 1940/50's and although has some truths in it there are also vital flaws, that have been passed on since.
Unless my friend or her young Daughter choose to enter the family path the line will die out when her Mother and Aunt pass on. The only Promise my friend has made is that if when her mother dies; there is no one left to follow on, she will destroy all her mothers things sight unseen.
Could this shed any light on why Wicca is viewed by many as a new path with out any evidence of line before GG and Old Dorothy? What happens in the family stays in the family.

On a personal note I would love to talk with my friends mother, as I believe she would be a mine of wonderful information. However due to her oaths there is no chance of that ever happening.

Looking at various paths within the Pagan Umbrella I find myself leaning towards Wicca, but am not sure if I want to except that I need to join a coven that traces its line back to GG. I would say that at this moment in time I am still searching and more eclectic by choice.

If we are chosen by the God/dess. Who are we to question? Do people really think that He/She would turn a person away because a few people in this mortal world have a Spiritual snobbery that only recognises people who have gone through a group Initiation that can trace its line back through a few practitioners of a given faith?
BB
Jax

---

"I cannot stand by what I believed yesterday. I cannot guaruntee what I'll believe tomorrow. But today this is my considered position." - Bruce Grierson

[admin]

Jaxom said:

If we are chosen by the God/dess. Who are we to question? Do people really think that He/She would turn a person away because a few people in this mortal world have a Spiritual snobbery that only recognises people who have gone through a group Initiation that can trace its line back through a few practitioners of a given faith?
BB
Jax

Hi Jax

I think many people get confused about initiation and think when people say you need to be initiated to be a Gardnerian or Alexandrian they are saying you need to be initiated to be a witch. This is definitely not so.

The gang that you want to be initiated into make the rules, so it's the Gardnerians, the Masons, the Alexandrians, the Roman Catholics, the Bloods, etc. who decide what it takes to be part of their "gang", jumping up and down and proclaiming yourself a Roman Catholic won't make you a Catholic until you've been accepted and baptised into the Roman Catholic Church. That's just the way it is.

You don't need to be initiated to be a witch, or to honour the Gods, you do need to be initiated to be a Gardnerian or an Alexandrian (or a Mason, etc.)

bb
Rhiannon

[Deabolus]

Dearest poopastoop it is so obvious that you have never found those who would think you adept enough to join the coven! You can "PUSSY" foot around with your: If you dont accept me I`ll make it up traditions but in order to gain "REAL KNOWLEDGE" (you know the stuff that really works as opposed to the made up fluffy bunny, crystal brigades pretendaspells knowledge)
You need to be with and a part of those who`s knowledge has been handed down and kept pure!
Those that have a real connection. Those "really" in the know!
You sound like the many who "SAY" they have done this and that? Those who would have others think they are the "bees knees" A Witchy Guru of the highest order.
This is why you can never find that "Coven" BECAUSE YOU HAVE TOTALY MISSED THE POINT
so old and yet so unwise?
You should take a long look at yourself? stop trying to joke your way into the place you so desire!

"There are none so blind as they who will not see"

[TheWatcher©]

Initiation necessary or not?

In the Liber Umbrarum section within Doreen Valiente's Witchcraft for Tomorrow you'll find a very good Self Initiation Rite as well as an example Rite for Initiation into a Coven.

In this book she does not draw any distinction between either in the abilities or potential of fulfilment of them.

If you compare the two rituals and ignore the group dynamics, the anticipatory element of acceptance within a group and upholding of the secrets of the coven bits I think the individual one is a far more powerful one from an emotional standpoint.

What do you think?

CCStoop©<br>
^{if dyslexic christians worship dog, who do dyslexic satanists worship, santa?}

[Jaxom]

The Question was "Initiation - necessary or not?"

I have the say in my view the answer has to be "not"

Unless you need to have someone to work with.

Who says that the person who carried out your Initiation was doing it right? were they just going through the motions and play acting?
if everytinh is kept so secret how do you compare?

If a bucket that you use to make sand castles with has a dent or defect.. all future sand castles will also have the same defect.
some times it is better to start with a new bucket. one you made yourself that makes the sand castles just how you want them or need them to be

[TheWatcher©]

You make a couple of good points Jaxom ;D

In 'Living Wicca' by Scott Cunningham he discusses Initiation as a kind of rebirth, the death of the old self and the emergence of a new who's life is orientated towards their path. That initiation, self or otherwise can only take place after a period of self-training and experience which involves developing a personal relationship with the Goddess and God and this is absolutely essential and never undertaken lightly.

It is worth a read

CCStoop©<br>
^{knocking the dents out of an old bucket can be quite satisfying}

[sam]

in answer to the question i feel that yes initiation is important but only if that it what you wish for. as a solitary pagan witch leaning towards trad witchcraft i do not currently feel the need to want to join a coven as i am enjoying learning what i have and am all by my lil self.

now as to this deabolus what the hell is his problem. i think things are getting a little too personal on here and the constant bitching is starting to ruin the site. when i come on here i like to know whats been going on with you guys and i don't want to have to sit here reading rot like this!

[ursus]

Just on the odd chance that Deabolus is not a 15 year old geek? I would ask all to exercise caution on the petty name calling, he may be just checking you out in the real world?
I have known some who have not mellowed with age and are just as nasty now as they have ever been and in moments of rage can send some pretty nasty stuff. If you dont believe that well dont say that someone didnt tell you so. This does not mean that the knives should come out and the I am so protected nothing can harm me posturing should start? If you belive in magic then it matters not if you are 15 or 50 bad shit can happen. It is better to let sleeping dogs snooze as they say!
Although "I AM NOT THE MODERATOR AND DO NOT THINK I AM"
I would like to ask Deabolus to return in a none confrontational way and maybe tell us more about his chosen path of Lucifarian Witchcraft? Then we could have a debate without the smug remarks from all sides! Lets have some serious adult debate. ;D ;D ;D

[IAN]

Hi Ursus

I fully agree with you about Deabolus returning to the board, i was actually quite interested in his particular path and would have liked to have had the opportunity to have discussed this with him, but when someone like Deabolus is unwilling to let others know anything about his path saying that it is a very secretive path and only answering questions with questions, then i don't think a sensible discussion is achievable, i think the main reason for him posting in the first place was to just have cheap pot shots at other peoples chosen paths.

[qwerty]

Yes I agree with ursus it would be beneficial to hear about everything from the light to the dark and all the hues in between.


Qwerty